In this week's episode of the CNBC Changemakers and Power Players podcast, CNBC Senior Media and Tech Reporter Julia Boorstin sits down with Moms First & Girls Who Code Founder Reshma Saujani.
Saujani talks about her documentary "No Country for Mothers" and why she believes motherhood in America is "impossible by design." Saujani argues that the 'trad wife vs. girl boss' debate is just the latest version of a long-running culture war that distracts from practical solutions like affordable childcare and paid family leave. They also discuss the growing "power gap" for women in AI, and how she uses AI tools in her own work, while pushing for broader access so low-income communities aren't left behind.
Listen to the full episode here. New episodes drop every Tuesday.
All references must be sourced to CNBC Changemakers and Power Players podcast.
SAUJANI ON MOTHERHOOD IN AMERICA
JULIA BOORSTIN: To see you lead this movement, Moms First, has been awesome. For me as a mom myself, you have this new movie coming out. And I watched the opening. I haven't seen the whole thing yet, but I watched the opening and it made me incredibly emotional because it really raises all these questions about what's wrong in this country when it comes to parenting and childcare. So thank you for being here. Tell us what is this movie that you have coming out?
RESHMA SAUJANI: So this movie, you know, it's called "No Country for Mothers" and it's an investigation into the lies that we have told throughout American history to divide and distract mothers, you know, from getting the things that we need. And here's the thing, like motherhood in America is impossible by design. It's a feature, not a bug. And I feel like moms have been getting conned since the ink dried on the Constitution.
BOORSTIN: But what do you mean by that?
SAUJANI: Yeah people are like what do you mean by that? Like why does the workday end at six and school pickup is at 3:30? Why do we pay more for our childcare than our mortgage? Why do most women go back to work two weeks after having a baby, right? And we present these as our personal failures, you know, when in fact they're structural. And we're so divided that we don't come together to fix them. And that's what I want this movie to fix.
SAUJANI ON TRAD WIFE VERSUS GIRL BOSS CON
BOORSTIN: The thing that made me emotional watching the opening of the film is this idea that moms feel that we are always failing and we can't get it right and we can't be everywhere at the same time and just this feeling of being pulled in different directions. And it seems like what you're saying is we shouldn't be putting that on ourselves. We should be trying to figure out how to change the system.
SAUJANI: And that like, that's intentional that you feel that way.
BOORSTIN: What do you mean? Intentional by whom? I don't— Â
SAUJANI: The culture wars in America. So like, basically, and this is what this film looks into, it's like from the beginning of time, we've created these dichotomies. Because the worst thing that I can tell you, Julia, is that you're a bad mom, right?
BOORSTIN: Yes.
SAUJANI: That's like, the worst thing I can say to you. So think about like, what's the current culture war? The current culture war in America is trad wife, first girl boss. Right? And I have traveled the country and I have yet to meet a woman who wants to spend her time milking a cow, right? Or hustling so hard that she never sees her kids. Like most people in America can't afford to be one. So you and I and women like us spend all of our time defending our choices in the comment section in Instagram because we don't want to feel like we're a bad mom or a bad worker. And that is a distraction that prevents us from banning together and fixing childcare or passing paid leave. And so to me, it's a con. It's a con by politicians, right, to win elections. It's a con by influencers to sell books. It's a con by technology companies, right, who make their revenue on ad sales. And so they get us to rage bait. So they make money off of our clicks. All of it, quite frankly, is a trick to make us feel so like, like insecure about our own choices so that we spend our time fighting each other rather than breaking down the system.
SAUJANI ON WOMEN HELPING WOMEN
BOORSTIN: So your ultimate goal is to pass childcare and paid leave. And you say that there's nothing more powerful than a pissed off mom. I would also say there's nothing more powerful than women helping women.
SAUJANI: That's right.
BOORSTIN: And what I've seen as a working mom, that some of my biggest allies are the moms who are not working right now. And when they reach out to help me because I'm traveling for the day and they can, it's easy for them to give me a hand and they admire what I'm doing and they know someday they'll be back in the workforce. To me, that collaboration is something that I think is really valuable—
SAUJANI: 100%.
BOORSTIN: And sometimes it's overlooked by the narrative.
SAUJANI: I'm just like you, like my P.S. 11 group chat — the moms, right, who are like, Reshma, did you pack the swimsuit today? I mean, graduation — because they know, right? And they have so much pride in being able to help me. And I wouldn't have made it, you know what I mean?
BOORSTIN: Yeah.
SAUJANI: I would not have made it this far without them. And that's right. So you asked me like — what's your goal? Yes, it's policy, but you know what else it is? Sisterhood. Community. Coming together. Not judging each other. I don't want the stay-at-home moms in my life to feel embarrassed because they think they're not contributing to society. I want to have a — maybe we should be paying them. Let's have that conversation. You know what I mean? I want people to see that. In many ways, the divide isn't even red and blue. It is about choices. One of the biggest fake divides right now are between women who work and women who are at home. And so, and there's a lot of judgment there. That was the thing that really surprised me as I went on the road. That's all people really cared. They felt so lonely because they felt so judged.
SAUJANI ON AI POWER GAP
BOORSTIN: Right now, there's also a gender gap in AI. And we've heard both anecdotally from CEOs that their female employees are adopting AI less, but also the data shows from CNBC studies and plenty of other studies that women are not engaging with AI at the same level as men. And one thing I thought was really interesting is the research showing that women feel like it's sort of cheating to explore AI—
SAUJANI: Yeah, and we're rule followers.
BOORSTIN: Yeah and so that could end up really holding women back. How much do you think women are in a vulnerable position because of the risk AI poses to jobs and in general?
SAUJANI: I mean, listen, I think that some data shows that the jobs that are not going to be automated are the ones that women are in. So one could argue that AI might be actually good for women's opportunity in terms of like the humans that are going to be left around doing work. But the where I really want to focus is like I think that even if we close the usage gap in AI, I want to close the power gap because there is a power gap in AI. If you look at the researchers, if you look at the founders, if you look at the creators, they're all men solving problems that men think about. And I think more today, more than ever before, if you think about risk management, if you think about the proliferation of pornography with AI images, like these are things that women see and we need women to actually do something about. And so that's why to me it's so important to continue to make sure that we close the power gap of women in AI, which means that we have to close the access gap.